NYC777 From United States, joined Jun 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 22 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 38169 times:
Ok there's been two stories in German publications about another delay but so far nothing. One said it was due to FAA certification requirements and both the FAA and Boeing denied that certification will delay the 787 further. The second story doesn't even give a reason for a delay.
GeorgiaAME From United States, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 37909 times:
For heaven's sake, it's a MACHINE! It's not a cure for cancer, it's not an ark like Noah had to urgently build to save human kind, it's a machine that flies. It gets delayed, that is the manufacturer's problem, financially at least. It has a nose, a body, wings, and a tail. Trust me, or better yet, trust Boeing, it will ultimately move people through the air, from point A to point B. And ultimately save them a few bucks. The corporation made some big blunders in an attempt to save money? As the engineering adage goes, Faster, Better, Cheaper. You can have any 2, but not 3 of the above. Smart people should know that instinctively. Apparently bean counters aren't smart people.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1179 posts, RR: 19 Reply 4, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 37923 times:
Quoting FCKC (Thread starter): Boeing has announced to airlines , another 9 months delay for the 787
That's not what the German newspaper said. It said airlines are advised by Boeing that DELIVERY delays will accumulate to 27 months by 2012 and that Boeing is reportedly refusing to pay penalties for aircraft that were originally scheduled for delivery beyond 2012.
As long as the production rate is less than what was originally foreseen, delivery delays will keep accumulating.
Jlbmedia From United States, joined Jun 2002, 299 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 37590 times:
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3): it's a machine that flies. It gets delayed, that is the manufacturer's problem,
It's more than just Boeing's problem. It always seemed like Boeing's time table was very aggressive. But many airlines have made major decisions based on that time table, and now are scrambling for lift to cover the gaps that are now developing between the end of leases, and the delivery of the 787s.
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3): For heaven's sake, it's a MACHINE! It's not a cure for cancer,
I agree, Sometimes we have to stop and put things into perspective, and I think you just did that. But this is an aviation forum, and here Aviation is king.
Flynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 37528 times:
Quoting Jlbmedia (Reply 5): Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
it's a machine that flies. It gets delayed, that is the manufacturer's problem,
It's more than just Boeing's problem. It always seemed like Boeing's time table was very aggressive. But many airlines have made major decisions based on that time table, and now are scrambling for lift to cover the gaps that are now developing between the end of leases, and the delivery of the 787s.
Yes, Boeing have made big promises for their product and therefore they will bite the dust when they cannot deliver what they have promised.
About this supposed new delay it is just as vague as the FAA certification rumour, hence I´ll take it with a big grain of salt.
With all these rumours going around I only trust one source about the 787 and that is Boeing themselves.
WingedMigrator From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1383 posts, RR: 23 Reply 7, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 37363 times:
Quoting FCKC (Thread starter): Boeing has announced to airlines , another 9 months delay for the 787.
If true, this is a different kind of delay. The last three delays have pushed back EIS, with little impact mentioned to the subsequent production ramp-up. Boeing has been coy regarding the production ramp-up, leaving analysts to read the tea leaves: to my knowledge they never committed to firm production numbers for 2010 through 2012. It is quite possible that new delays may occur that no longer affect EIS, but do flatten out the production ramp up.
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 4): That's not what the German newspaper said.
Do you possibly have a link to the original German article?
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 1876 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 37283 times:
I hope there is no substance to this report of a report of a further delay. But... it would be a pretty major screw up for a paper to report that customers had been informed of a further delay and then to be proved wrong. Strange that when I searched for 787 on Welt Online, the story did not come up.
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3): It gets delayed, that is the manufacturer's problem, financially at least.
RedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 1476 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 37163 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 4): It said airlines are advised by Boeing that DELIVERY delays will accumulate to 27 months by 2012
Which makes perfect sense. Boeing announced in April that ramp-up of production will be slower than first anticipated, so it's not strange that some customers will get their birds 27 months later than first anticipated.
What I'd like to know is, with this delayed ramp-up, when is the first available slot for airlines signing up for the 787 today?
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 1854 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 37109 times:
Well, Monarch, RJ, and one other airline (forgot which one) have already publicly said the 787 deliveries will be delayed up to 30 months (including the already announced delays). So this is IMHO not news, but a further confirmation.
Observer From United States, joined Jun 2007, 60 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 36963 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 11): Reply 11, posted Sat May 3 2008 08:31:50 your local time (14 minutes 28 secs ago) and read 78 times:
Well, Monarch, RJ, and one other airline (forgot which one) have already publicly said the 787 deliveries will be delayed up to 30 months (including the already announced delays). So this is IMHO not news, but a further confirmation.
Moo From Falkland Islands (Malvinas), joined May 2007, 2174 posts, RR: 7 Reply 14, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36827 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 11): Well, Monarch, RJ, and one other airline (forgot which one) have already publicly said the 787 deliveries will be delayed up to 30 months (including the already announced delays). So this is IMHO not news, but a further confirmation.
Quoting Observer (Reply 12): Lan Chile was the third airline, at 24 months.
All three of those airlines could be classed as 'second tier' customers - we haven't yet heard about any longterm delivery delays (above and beyond the standard delays announced by Boeing) from top tier customers such as Qantas, BA, the American carriers et al.
Is it conceivable that Boeing is sacrificing certain customers slots in order to lessen the impact on more 'valued' customers?
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1179 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36719 times:
Quoting Moo (Reply 14): Is it conceivable that Boeing is sacrificing certain customers slots in order to lessen the impact on more 'valued' customers?
Wouldn't that be a blatant case of discrimination and arrogance? Not exactly the sort of 'customer focus' that is supposed to be the mark of a healthy business.
Jacobin777 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 12443 posts, RR: 55 Reply 16, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36361 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 15): Quoting Moo (Reply 14):
Is it conceivable that Boeing is sacrificing certain customers slots in order to lessen the impact on more 'valued' customers?
Wouldn't that be a blatant case of discrimination and arrogance? Not exactly the sort of 'customer focus' that is supposed to be the mark of a healthy business.
It would actually depend on the stated contracts. For example, penalties for "2nd-tiered" companies might be much smaller than the "top-tiered" companies. Size of the order would probably play a part also.
Manfredj From United States, joined Mar 2007, 323 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 36326 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 4): That's not what the German newspaper said. It said airlines are advised by Boeing that DELIVERY delays will accumulate to 27 months by 2012 and that Boeing is reportedly refusing to pay penalties for aircraft that were originally scheduled for delivery beyond 2012.
As long as the production rate is less than what was originally foreseen, delivery delays will keep accumulating.
If so, this thread should be deleted or re-worded....talk about scaring the crap out of us for no reason.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 702 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 36043 times:
Like the in the case of the A380, people want to believe the worst. They revel in the worst. Why do you think paparazi have become such a parasite, people eat the crap up they generate and it has become a massive industry with all sorts of people getting rich out of endangering and pestering people.
Some people have no sense of reality and make all sorts of stupid statements about the 787 all the time. They obviously have no experience launching something new and innovative. How many times is software late because some bugs have to be worked out? How many times have some of the new hydrogen powered vehicles been delayed because of problems. How many recalls are there from products rushed into service and something is found wrong?
Get a grip folks. True innovation requires taking some risk. If you always play it safe you miss innovation and settle often for second best.
Should Boeing have done things differently from a marketing perspective? Yes
Should they have started with a intermediate step in making the 787? Maybe
Will the plane fly and be a success? Yes
In 5 years will the delays matter a hill of beans? No
Should forum members reaquaint themselves with the fairy tales about "Crying Wolf" and the "Little Chicken who went around crying the Sky is Falling?" YES!! :P
Moo From Falkland Islands (Malvinas), joined May 2007, 2174 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 35933 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 15): Wouldn't that be a blatant case of discrimination and arrogance? Not exactly the sort of 'customer focus' that is supposed to be the mark of a healthy business.
Sacrifice those which hurt you less in the long run, to ensure those that mean more to you in the long run are more satisfied. If Boeing can limit the impact of a slower than expected production ramp up for those customers that really matter, why not?
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 18): In 5 years will the delays matter a hill of beans? No
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